Long run, indium, standard counter and MG data

Data from actual runs of fusors goes here, we can discuss it elesewhere in other sub forums I will create as needed -- let me know.
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Put data and fusor information from actual runs here. We'd like to know how well you are doing, and how you did it in some detail here. We can discuss elsewhere, this is for real reports from actual experiments only, or at least, mainly.

Long run, indium, standard counter and MG data

Postby Doug Coulter » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:08 pm

I finally got Indium! Yeah, not a big deal for the big boys, but first time for very convincing results here. I am currently fighting with an URSA windows install to see if I got gold too this time - it doesn't count out of background on a geiger, but since that's all gammas, not a big surprise.

Fusor data - main grid the tungsten 8 rod, graphite endcaps one.
D pressure 1.6e2 mbar indicated. The PKR 251 reads factor of 2 high on D (according to the manuf) so converting to microns with that factor included gives 10.66... micons.
Second grid W wire loop (as usual) with 10 ma through 100k ballast for ion source - usually around 5kv (makes no measurable neutrons but allows the lower running pressure).
Power supply nominal 50.7kv, 20 ma current limit, usually about 17ma when running (bounces around, and logged this time)
Run terminated by feedthrough failure. It may work again when everything cools down (again, this has happened before).
Indium in the main neutron oven, silver and gold in the secondary one, silver not counted this time, gold - working on that before it fully decays (software issues URSA/windows).

Here's the plots from 30,000 feet: Geigers and Neutrons, lines only, 10 sec averages only, nearly all of run and count after:
longrun.png
Plot of SC log file for run and activation count

A couple of things to note. With our rough ad-hoc calibration off our own and Richard Hull's data, we were making about 1.7 million neuts a second at the start of the run. We are seeing this decay for some reasons we know, and some we don't. The ones we know are that this is batch mode, and after some running, we need to put in fresh gas, as it seems baking and outgassing lets in some pollutants that reduce the neutron production. I need to take a mass spectrum after a run soon to see if we're just making hydrocarbons with the graphite parts of the grid and the D.

(All this windows junk seems to decay with time, it's been hard to keep it all running - windows updates break things, have to go and get new verisions of the main software from the uncooperative manufs to fix that, and so on - quite lame, but a nice lock-in FOR THEM since they refuse to do that without more money after a time -- even though you've already paid them 10's of thousands for the hardware.)

We also see a general decline over the time of a long run, which I don't know the cause of -- hot stuff doesn't work as well? We did not see this on Richards data using the same sensors. Since we've logged this, we can get some real accurate numbers by crunching what's in the log files, but this gives you the overview. At the end of the run, you can see the neutrons drop to nothing, the geigers go down when I shut off the main power (so there's a nice reference on what our background is, right in the plot), and after awhile, where I put the In onto the standard counter to see if I got it hot - and I did!

On this log plot, any decay looks like a straight line sloping down. In this case, that's most of the time for the plot of the overall run. With StdPlot software, we can drill down to more detail easily, and will. We can also go into the log files (attached) and find exact seconds, and do things like find the total counts over some arbitrary time interval to get a long term average as statistically good as the data allows.
Guess I ought to put the log files in there. There are two from standard counter, and one from another computer logged counter I run - the main benefit of the latter is it also logs some a/d inputs that show the power supply voltage and current vs time, along with its own pancake counter at 10 sec intervals. I'll have to write some more perl to plot that one, (different file format) and put in the correct conversions from raw A/D numbers to volts and milliamps. However, empirically, when the geiger counts and neutron counts go down in the above plot, what was happening was the supply was current limiting on the additional gas from outgassing (or whatever is going on), and they return to high levels when I pulse the foreline gas solenoid to take out some gas. At a couple points, I took out gas to the point things "went out" and then let in some fresh (in no case all the gas got out), then adjusted for the right operating conditions.
Here's some log files -- the main long one, a shorter one I took later of just the indium, and the one from the old multigeiger setup (has some glitches). That last is roughly 8 seconds earlier than the standard counter logs (need to make that something that is synced). I think once I plot it they will be easy to line up again, since when the geigers say the fusor went out, that's a sharp time market that will match the power supply current going to zero for a little while.
10_16_2011_16_0_25.log
Main log file plotted above
(213.37 KiB) Downloaded 254 times

10_16_2011_17_1_55.log
Just In, stared ~3-4 min after main log file end
(31.62 KiB) Downloaded 254 times

longrun.txt
Mulit Geiger log (serial port save)
(128 KiB) Downloaded 252 times

I always monitor all this on the audio and the scope. For fun, here's an example scope screen catpure. Ch1 is a 3He tube, ch2 is a very old B10 tube (farther away) and the third channel is the Hornyak detectos which is what is plotted in the other plots. Nice take on the various sensitivities, and in the case of the 3He, how I need to get back into that preamp and fix up the DC restoration. The B10 preamp is slow (but then, so is the tube response). The baseline noise on the traces comes in because I told the scope to sample fast (2.5 ghz) while the sweep was slow, so I could see even sub-pixel pulses at the slow sweep rate.
scope3.jpg
Scope capture



(I'll be editing this to add more plots and whatnot over the next few days).
Posting as just me, not as the forum owner. Everything I say is "in my opinion" and YMMV -- which should go for everyone without saying.
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Re: Long run, more details

Postby Doug Coulter » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:26 pm

JustFusor.png
Just the fusor part of the run

The plot above is just the fusor part of the run. I plotted both the 1 and 10 sec avearages for geigers on this, because even though it makes the plot visually noisy it tells you something important - when it went out, and when it came back on. The red lines are always off the baseline when the fusor is "lit". Near the beginning of the run, the gas pressure started going up to the point of dragging down the power supply (because of the current limit I'd set to protect everything else, the supply is a real beast). So I took out some gas -- too much, and it went out. Then let some in, too much again...this is still a bit of effort to run. But I get it going again a little after 200 seconds, and only have minor issues from there on (till my HV feedthrough started arcing inside the tank). When I get the power supply data time aligned and plotted, I'll add it in and all this will be obvious. I'm using the SCPlot software I wrote here - you can zoom in on any part of the file and have a lot of choice what to plot re traces, and styles (points, lines etc). I'm still using log plots here, as they get it all on the screen the best, and in meaningful ways -- the linear plots just blow up the noise better.

Here's just the Indium decaying. On the log plot, it's a straight line (and is simpler than silver decaying, because it lacks all the short-lived metastable states silver has). Looks like I got it into the 229cpm range, with a background (also shown) that long term average is about 27 cpm here.
JustIndium.png
Just Indium, nice slow decay

I caught a little of the tail of the fusor run (some high X rays due to the FT arcing still at medium high voltage), then some background, then the indium. I also looked at this on a linear plot, but I didn't take a long enough count here to really see the belly of the exponential.

For noise and statistics semi-junkies (real junkies will download the raw logs and do the work themselves!), I took another count a few minutes later, and plotted it linear this time, with 1 and 10 sec averages so you can see how noisy and random radioactive decay is, particularly when it's only several times the background (which I caught on both ends of this one).
I'd guess I'd have had to make about a 2 hour run just counting this to show the nice exponential shape...
InLaterLinear.png
3-4 minutes after previous decay plot end, linear, In decay


I guess I now get to go and make a format converter so I can plot the other main log file, which is logging 10 second counts from a 2" pancake geiger counter, and the power supply volts and ma every second, and get it time-aligned. I note that even with these right at the front of the fusor (about 16" from the grid) we got lower geiger counts during a run than at Richards 2011 HEAS from 5 feet away. While the square law is your friend, as he says - lead is a better friend yet. Do shield your stuff, no point taking risks when it's so easy to avoid most of them.
Posting as just me, not as the forum owner. Everything I say is "in my opinion" and YMMV -- which should go for everyone without saying.
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Doug Coulter
 
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Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:05 pm
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