Papp engine demonstration.

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Papp engine demonstration.

Postby chrismb » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:45 pm

Can someone come up with a rational explanation of what I can see happen in the video on this page, please!?

http://pesn.com/2012/08/03/9602151_Bob- ... TeslaTech/
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Re: Papp engine demonstration.

Postby Doug Coulter » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:13 pm

Well, by halfway through, he hadn't...that looked like one hell of a power supply in the bottom of his setup though...
While I realize there has to be a balance in explaining things to non tech types, the complete lack of any rigorous use of nomenclature tells me it's probably a fake. But I'll have to go back and see the other half hour and see if any of that shows up.

This reminded me a lot of one of those hour long boring dissertations on cold fusion, where when anyone asked a real question that would have to be answered by physics knowledge, the guy changed the subject.
And don't dare bring your own detector for neutrons or X rays - they won't let you since there are none. Here, I'm playing skeptic, since not one of those guys has shipped anything that'll boil a cup of tea without enough electrical input to, well, boil a cup of tea. At least we don't claim what we can't prove - our stuff doesn't get shy when someone holds up test equipment to it.

Obviously, with a few KW on tap, you can make things go up and down by heating the gas electrically, then letting it cool, though.
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Re: Papp engine demonstration.

Postby chrismb » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:45 am

Sorry, :oops: , I should've suggested flipping through the video [like I did!].

You can find the parts where he part disassembles it, then runs it.

D'you think this is just a big solenoid, then?

The Papp patent is quite interesting - there's no scent of patent flannel in it, nor crazy claims, like you usually get in a crank application. It just says 'do this, add this, and bang'. Untypically specific, if it were a scam patent. It's too easily tested. I'm tempted to investigate, it's that straight-forward.

... not forgetting Papp's infamous demonstration in front of Feynman, where Feynman pulled out a wire half-way through the demonstration (without asking if it was safe to do it), somehow causing the engine to blow up and someone got killed [apparently]. (Not one of his finer moments!)
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Re: Papp engine demonstration.

Postby vmike » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:00 am

This video does a better job on the explanation and you can see the pieces a little better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zWJNyoF ... re=related
I've read about this for years, but never built one to see what it's doing past the expansion/contraction of the inert gas.

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Re: Papp engine demonstration.

Postby Doug Coulter » Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:39 am

Yeah. I have real trouble with all these vids that spend 10-15 minutes "teaching" 2nd grader type stuff. No schematic. No numbers. No proper nomenclature. No proof of anything other than that yes, if you dump a ton of energy into a gas, it gets hot and if contained increases pressure. I simply could not make myself watch that grade of crap for very long, one of the few things I can't stand is being talked to as if I'm a complete idiot and the talker only minimally above that. Who knows, maybe they have something - I really really truly doubt it. If you can get gain with that simple level of stuff - show me that boiling cup of tea, that go kart doing 40 mph driven by it and not trailing #2 wire for the power input. I see what they are putting in - one heck of a lot of electricity, and some apparently non-reacting substances in a pretty wierd mix.
So, what's getting used up? Even with E=MC^2, something's gotta go bye bye for energy to be produced. Not one word on that, though you know at the power levels they're putting into the electrodes, they are evaping some tungsten etc. Sure, I can make a piston rise with enough arc energy to make a bang. Hell, one of my 6kj capacitors could send that thing into the next county, or make a 6 foot diameter ball of plasma out of a copper tubing coil. That's just releasing energy that came from elsewhere.

Instead, they seem to be going quite far in the direction of making sure no one who does know physics can even watch their presentation without breaking out in hives. Tells me something right there.
Come on - if there's real energy production going on, I'd bet anyone real could reduce it to a single sentence or paragraph, then go into the "teach you physics basics explanation" which is what you see for 100% of things that are actually real. Even if you're not sure of your theory, you tell what it is. Plasma isn't magic, it's just plasma. A plasma exists on every firing/power stroke of any conventional IC engine too. So?

Bottom line, if they had something...they wouldn't be talking to me (or much dumber people who seem to be the audience they want) about it - they'd be selling the crap out of it and being very wealthy and not nearly as talkative. On the other hand, people who seek out dumb audiences to show them "Amazing things" that are well outside the dumb recipients experience, are generally trying to "raise money to take it to market" ... it has scam written all over it.

Does GM go all wild about their little tricks with variable cam timing? No, they don't, they barely mention they do it, the results speak for themselves. Because that is real...and they are selling it as a working thing. It's not like they couldn't stand to raise some money themselves either, but the way they do it is sell cars that contain these nice little tricks.

Maybe Rossi's E-Cat can make enough power to run this? <joke>
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Re: Papp engine demonstration.

Postby Doug Coulter » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:49 pm

If you guys like looking at this conspiracy theory - tinfoil hat - suppressed stuff, here's a link to a bunch of it.
http://www.free-energy-info.com/

Just remember - N Tesla's "suppressed" bladeless turbine did work - but it was only 1% efficient. It wasn't suppressed, it was simply overwhelmed in the market place by things that worked a ton better.

And, if our own fusion experiments were putting out even milliwatts for hundreds of watts in, they'd replace very other neutron source on the planet and someone would be getting rich off that. You'd have to run them in a cave, of course.
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Re: Papp engine demonstration.

Postby chrismb » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:07 pm

vmike wrote:This video does a better job on the explanation and you can see the pieces a little better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zWJNyoF ... re=related
I've read about this for years, but never built one to see what it's doing past the expansion/contraction of the inert gas.

mike


Thanks, Mike, that makes it clear what we're looking at ... OK, so this is just a big solenoid, then?!?! :?

I was under the impression (from the patent) that the solenoid was to induce a plasma, but clearly that is not an HF induction coil for plasma, it is a bloomin' big solenoid coil.

Even if it was a coil to induce a plasma, it is in the wrong place on the kit because at that point when the piston is 'down' all that there is inside the solenoid is an armature, not any gas.

Have I got that wrong? I don't understand what the point of this is ....
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Re: Papp engine demonstration.

Postby johnf » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:39 pm

my take on this snake oil is--

What is the temperature of the plasma?? --that will cause the gas to expand by x
the helium is the working gas, expansion / heat transfer wise
xenon argon neon to provide high workfunction plasma gasses
rhubidium and thorium to provide lower work function for electron flow through the gas mix
the solenoid around the outside is to help keep the plasma in the middle ( contained) and might also allow energy recovery.

we are all taught about the three states of matter, solid/ liquid /gas but little or nothing about the forth state, plasma


seems that Papp got it right and had a reasonable lifestyle from it
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